Diane Foley, Founder, Foley Foundation: Promoting Journalist Safety and Advancing US Hostage Policy

Olivia Dunning: Madam Speaker! Madam Secretary, Madam Vice President. This is Madam Policy, a podcast about women shaping policy, creating history. Hi everyone, and welcome to Madam Policy. We have a very exciting episode for you today. And today I get to co host with Caitlin Sickles, one of my dear friends and colleagues of 15 years, if you can believe it. But who's counting? Yeah, who's counting every single day? No. Who's counting? So ⁓ our amazing guest is Diane Foley. And Caitlin, I would like to ask you to introduce ⁓ Diane, if you would. Sure. ⁓ so I am thrilled to be with you, Dee, and to be recording this episode. So ⁓ today, as you said, Dee, we are so honored to welcome Diane Foley to the show. Diane is president and founder of the James W. Foley Legacy Foundation. Diane's son. James or Jim Foley was an American conflict journalist. ⁓ he dedicated his career to telling the stories of people living through war and humanitarian crises and political instability. And because of that work, Jim reported from some of the most dangerous places on earth. People may know Jim because in 2012 he was kidnapped while reporting in Syria. He was held hostage for nearly two years before being murdered. By members of ISIS in 2014. His death, which was posted online in a really horrific way, shocked the world. But his courage and his compassion and commitment to bearing witness certainly continue to inspire journalists and advocates around the globe. And on a personal note, Jim was a proud Marquette University graduate, ⁓ as am I, which is how I came to know Diane. And I think what's Important for listeners to know about Diane is in the wake of that unimaginable loss, Diane and her family chose not to let Jim's story end there and instead transformed that horrific personal tragedy into a lifelong mission to ensure that other families would not have that same experience, would not have to navigate the experience alone. So that leads us to the James Foley Foundation. We'll talk a lot about Diane's work. the work of the foundation in the course of the conversation. People should know that Diane is a speaker, ⁓ including last year at the Vatican in an incredibly powerful witness of faith and forgiveness, which you can find on YouTube and should. She is also an author of the best selling memoir, American Mother. So Diane, we are thrilled to have you welcome. Welcome to the show. It's my honor. Thank you so much. I would just add what two things. One, Diane, thank you. Thank you for your leadership. Thank you for your strength. And thank you for being with us today. I want to talk for just a minute about what many of our listeners already know, and that is Jim Foley's name, of course. But I don't know that they know the full story of what a remarkable individual he is. Who is the person behind that name? But before we get into the foundation, ⁓ as Caitlin suggested and your advocacy work, I want you to tell us just a little bit about Jim. Well, thank you for asking. Jim was our oldest, oldest of five. ⁓ he was a fun, loving little boy, always curious, interested in the world around him, loved to read and make believe. I mean, he would act out his stories ⁓ and was always into adventures. He ⁓ was really interested in history as he got older. Interested in people and their stories, made people tick. always had a real variety of friends who was interested in all types of people. So he was I don't think he was ordinary too. Ordinary like all of our kids, ordinarily wonderful. You know, he was just he was just a good kid. You know, he was kind and full of fun. ⁓ but he was also late and wasn't perfect at his issues in school. ⁓ who among us? Yeah. He was a very ordinary, wonderful person. He really was. Well, thank you for sharing his story today. And ⁓ I wanted to thank you also for being with us and allowing us to represent you. Diane and the foundation are one of our clients here at the firm, one of our pro bono clients. And it is an honor to get to talk about and share the work that you do with everyone who we know. So thank you for that. It's my honor. So let's talk a little bit about the work that you do. After losing Jim, of course, you and your family could have chosen to grieve. privately, but you didn't. And you all transformed that loss into this foundation. So talk a little bit ⁓ if you can about that journey. You know, my my recollection, I think, is that you started the foundation just really days or weeks after Jim's death. So h how you got the strength to found the foundation so quickly. And then I I do of course want to talk about the work that the foundation does now. It was an Such a difficult time. And but I think I know my faith came really from my faith in a loving and merciful God and from the goodness of people. I mean, once this horrible, horrible ⁓ beheading of Jim happened, we were just surrounded by such good people. It's just we were surrounded by love and support, encouragement, hope. And also I was really challenged by Jim. Jim just wanted to make a difference in the world. Jim wanted to do some good in his little way. And he challenged me. He would not have wanna be remembered by his death, but rather what he could bring to the world. So we all kind of knew we had to find a silver lining. We had to find something that would make Jim's life meaningful. ⁓ And that's when we were challenged by just and given the courage really to use our voice to speak about the injustice. I mean, I really was appalled that our government abandoned Jim and Steven Sotloff, Caitlin, and and Peter Casik. I was appalled. I never expected that to happen. So and I knew our country could do better. So I I just think all of that together challenged me and gave me courage to just use my voice. Right. So so there are different elements of what the foundation has done and continues to do. One of the things I think you're alluding to here is policy reform around how our government treats Americans who are held hostage or wrongfully detained around the world. And then part of the work of the foundation too is on journalists and and press freedom and educating journalists on how to be safe as they take on what are ⁓ I mean have always been dangerous careers and are increasingly dangerous careers. So talk if you can about sort of these different components of what the foundation does. And and I think I can speak for a lot of people having been ⁓ involved with the foundation that it has given Jim's life and legacy a lot of meaning. you know, people regularly talk about how you and the foundation have fundamentally changed the way that we consider people who are wrongfully detained. So so talk a little bit about that work. Well, yes. I think once we decided to ⁓ start the James Foley Legacy Foundation, ⁓ we had to figure out what we would do. And Jim was a multifaceted person as we all are. And but the urgent, most urgent need at the two came to the ⁓ forefront. And one was the fact that our government really felt prohibited from having from helping us, really. They, you know, because of anti-terrorism laws, our government did not feel they could negotiate for Jim's release. And therefore he was not helped. And I think we all began to feel that our country could and should Have the backs of innocent Americans who are taken hostage abroad, particularly when they're working as a journalist, educator, diplomat, even as a tourist, you know, if they're innocent and not doing anything wrong. So that became our first priority to advocate for any innocent American in in need of the help of our government. Secondly, we we felt particularly ⁓ freelance journalists. Journalists who are part of a big organization like CNN or or BBC, one of these big organizations, have security teams, have people who go with them, protect them. But more and more, particularly in the most dangerous parts of the world, it's the freelance journalists. They are on their own. So we were very concerned about promoting journalist safety and making sure that freelancers could ⁓ be empowered and protected as much as possible. And the final thing was Jim was challenging me, inspiring me. So we came up with our tagline of inspiring one another to have moral courage. That Jim, you know, has challenged me to that. And you and the foundation are certainly living up to that challenge. So you've taken on quite a few, quite a few elements. So yeah. Thank you. I wanna you know, so Diana, I first met you. I don't even know if you rem you would not remember that. Let me preface it this way. But I first met you when I attended your annual event, your dinner that you host, one of your very first ⁓ events. And and I was with Ali Sufan, former FBI agent, and he invited me to join at at their table. And it is a beautiful powerful event and I think it's so important because of the awareness raising piece that it does. And you are doing that every day. That was my first exposure to the Foley Foundation. And and I'm so glad that it was. And so I think on the awareness front, we see a lot of the work that you're doing and it's so important. When you think about the policy work that you're doing and you look back, what are you what are you most proud of? in terms of your policy accomplishments. ⁓ you know, I'm just so proud of so many good people who stepped up. And first of all, the fact that now we have a US hostage enterprise that has brought home more than two hundred fellow Americans from wrongful detention ⁓ abroad. That to me is miraculous. So I'm very, very proud of the many good people, both in government and outside of government who made that possible. I'm also grateful for the many people who've really worked hard to protect freelance journalists and who have contributed to our curriculum, which we use in universities, to ⁓ make sure that students studying to be journalists recognize that they also need to make sure they know how to protect themselves and their sources. But the other thing that it's been I didn't expect is I've just been really proud of the fact that Jim's story has inspired so many good people, both students and people abroad. I'm surprised. I mean, at the interest of my memoir, American Mother, it's been translated to seven languages. And I just find that incredible. That's amazing. But it also makes me realize how we people are similar, even from different cultures. And you know, family and goodness and courage matter no matter what culture you're part of. So I'm I'm deeply proud of all our work, which I never could have done alone. So ⁓ it's through the wonderful partners ⁓ and people who made it possible. Well it is it's it is wonderful work. And I just wanted to know, I was looking at your website in the past couple of days and you have listed forty different individuals on the website. who are currently detained or being held unlawfully. And and you're doing such an amazing job at raising awareness on the plight of these people and others. And I just am not sure that everyone knows the peril that exists really at all times. And so I I it is so important for those people and for those families to be highlighted on your website and to be talked about. Well, that's the that's the hard part. Th these problems haven't gone away. Right. That if anything, there's nation states and non state actors are using the kidnapping of innocent people ⁓ as political pawns. And that is the part that is very challenging. I really feel those 40 we've named are the tip of the iceberg. I was wondering so many families who don't dare be public about the the fact that their loved one is has been kidnapped. So It is something that we s still have a lot of work to do. Certainly on deterrence, prevention, raising awareness more. So Americans really recognize that we're targets. ⁓ Westerners are definitely targets as we tr ⁓ travel international. So a through line here is that you are giving voice to those who may not have voice as you didn't have a voice in the beginning when Jim was first taken. And so you are doing a powerful job in giving people this voice. And I think Jim did that too, right? He was giving voice to what was happening on the front lines. And in fact, if you go back, he was giving voice to students whom he taught in school. And so his world, it seems to me, has always been about communication and sharing these stories. And sometimes they're troubling and difficult stories. And your book American Mother captures that and it also delivers your voice in a most profound and reflective kind of way. So I want to talk about something I know is very important to you, and that is moral courage. And if you will indulge, ⁓ I'd like to share one of Jim's reflections on courage. He said, For some reason, I have physical courage. But really, when you think about it, that's nothing compared to moral courage. If I don't have moral courage to challenge authority, to challenge the system, to write about things that are going to have maybe reprisals on my career, if I don't have that moral courage. We don't have journalism. So I just think we've got to make sure we have the moral courage. Now, Jim was talking about journalism, but you seem to echo that in your life and work as well. So what does moral courage mean to you, Diane? And what does it look like in your work today when you're advocating for the wrongful detention families? Well, if I'm honest, I had never thought about it until Jim talked about it. That that day was when he returned from Libya. And he was actually at Marquette University talking to journalism students. And he and he challenged me. I thought, what are you thinking about moral courage, Jim? And ⁓ that's, you know. So he really challenged me to think about that. And and because it isn't always easy to do the right thing, the good thing. You know, it's easy to get disillusioned. There's a lot of bad things happening in the world, a lot of hurt, a lot of ⁓ tragedies. And yet that's why we need so much people who are willing to do good, who dare to use their voice, even if it's in a little ways of goodness and kindness to one another. That to me, moral courage is something that I think we all, myself included, need to aspire to every day. Because there's many things that'll prohibit us from doing the right thing often. So to me moral courage is just listening to that little voice that tells us the right thing, be it to be kind to someone, help someone, change your plans for someone else's need, ⁓ that kind of thing. And I I just and sometimes it's really brave things like speaking up against an injustice. Like ⁓ to be honest, after Jim was killed, I was angry. And I had to fight my own feeling of ⁓ kind of Bitterness. How could my government let this happen to Jim? How could they just abandon them? The forum I just was appalled by it. And I had to pray to ⁓ make that to transform that bitterness into the challenge it was to, well, what are you gonna do about it? You know, well, how are you gonna use that injustice for good? So I think that is the challenge that moral courage gives us all. We have have that choice every day and ever every hour of the day. I wanna let me talk about something that I think takes moral courage that you did that I don't know that I would have the capacity to do. And that is forgiveness. Would you mind talking about the meeting that you had with one of Jim's captors and how you found forgiveness in your heart? Well, I think that's where our faith comes in, to be honesty. I think ⁓ most of the faiths of the world recognize that we human beings need to be able to forgive ourselves and and others. I mean, otherwise the world would really be a a total chaos, right? That w none of us are perfect. And to be honest, when ⁓ we were g I was given the opportunity to meet with one of Jim's murderers, I I knew Jim would have. I was rather curious. I wanted to talk to him. I wanted to hear his side of the story. And I wanted him to hear from me who Jim was. And I I didn't expect much, Dee, but I was astounded at what a moment of grace it was. Because it was over three days we spoke and he listened to me and he had a lot to say. So ⁓ I listened to him. And I I think I know that's what our world needs. We all need to listen ⁓ better to one another. And actually, that was one of Jim's g gifts I never I always took for granted was Jim was a very good listener. Really, the best journalists hear people. They really hear what they're trying to say. So as far as my meeting with Alexander Cody, he was full of remorse. ⁓ he apologized to me multiple times for what I'd gone through as a mother. And so it wasn't that hard to see myself and our sons about the same age as Alexander. We're all imperfect people. And that's where we need to be willing to acknowledge that and, you know, ⁓ seek to forgive one another. So it's a process, you know, D, but I think it's ⁓ It's a very healthy process. Thank you for answering that. I'm sure it's it's not an easy thing, but it's an important message and forgiveness is powerful and you, Diane Foley, are one of the most powerful people I've ever met. That's sweet of you to say that, but no, I'm pretty I'm pretty much a wimp, but it's with God and good people. No, but and I think that's what we need in our world. We need to encourage one another to be the best people we can be. encourage one another to do the hard things sometimes. One of the powerful things I've heard you say, Diane, I heard you say it in a ⁓ commencement address at at Marquette is that the call of Jim's life as you've relayed to lots of young people in particular is not so much to follow him into journalism unless that's what your soul desires, but really to see who you are supposed to be in the world. What does the world need you to do? And then have the courage to follow it. And I I think that's a really inspirational message, along with of course, the other things that you were just saying. I well, I I just have come to really believe that. I mean, ⁓ life throws us a lot of ⁓ curve balls, right? And sometimes we find ourselves in awful, wonderful situations. But I think it's in those situations sometimes that we're really called to use those opportunities, use whatever gifts or talents we have, you know? It can be challenging. Yes. I want to pick back up on ⁓ something that that Dee mentioned earlier about, you know, from the website, there's a number of ⁓ families who are listed. You also mentioned two hundred people who have returned home, ⁓ working closely with the foundation. Course, so many of these situations are very sensitive, confidential. But is there a story that you can share about the foundation's work or about a family that you've worked with that captures what it is that you all do and why the work matters so much? ⁓ there's so many. But there's one that, you know, ⁓ comes to mind. It was a a ⁓ a young journalist, very talented journalist, who's ⁓ A dual citizen, American and Russian ⁓ journalist, works for ⁓ for Radio Free Europe and was stationed in Prague. She went to visit her ailing mother in Russia and was wrongfully detained. ⁓ she was held for two years in a Russian prison, and her husband was frantic trying to figure out what he had. Two teenage daughters, ⁓ one a preteen and a beautiful lovely young girls. And he but he would come to the US and and at that time, because she was also a Russian citizen, she was not considered wrongfully detained by our Secretary of State. So one of my privileges was with working with her husband, another journalist, Pavel Patorin, who ⁓ to really and the Secretary of State, Department of State, to show that Al Su was in fact wrongfully detained, that there was no justification for her imprisonment and getting to know the family, working with them and the partners that we do to ⁓ help her release. So when she came home to her two girls, and I've seen her since, she's now serving on the foley board of directors. ⁓ just I just can't tell you the joy, you know, the joy of ⁓ that reunion. So that's Jim's legacy to me. Yes. ⁓ Jim would have wanted that. ⁓ and there are so many stories like that. ⁓ we have just so many. A missionary was held in ⁓ Africa and he was taken by a terrorist group. It took us a long time to get him out because we still have a lot of restrictions with using ransom floor. And Jeffrey was held for a good five and a half years, tortured. It was a horrific ⁓ time, but We through another partner helped to get him home. And just an amazing ⁓ you know, sense of gratitude. And I think one thing that you're pointing at here, Diane, is it's it's about obviously the person wrongfully detained, but it's also about the families and loved ones of the of the person wrongfully detained. And now you ⁓ have done an amazing job in the policy space and you're certainly considered a leader. When we're talking about wrongful detainment, particularly of journalists, what do you wish that policymakers and public servants, or I guess what do you hope policymakers and public servants are thinking about when they're thinking about policies related to those who are wrongfully detained? Laws or guidance for the United States government? Well, I think all our policies need really to be based on research, on real happenings. What are the real consequences to people? And I think That's why we started our research ⁓ with hostage families and then returning ⁓ d people who were returned. Because we want to know, well, is this new enterprise working? What works, what doesn't? And then it's helped us to make recommendations for laws, like how to improve our current hostage policy. Because when Jim when our government refused to ⁓ negotiate for Jim, that was Not really based on research. If the research if you had looked at the research at that time, it was a given, they all would have been killed. That's what the research showed. If you don't engage at all with Captor, that's what happens. So I feel that it's very important that our policy be research based and really based on the needs of our people. You know, that it ⁓ the voice of the people needs to be part of the process, that it's it's ⁓ essential to make things work and to make policies really sound. One of the resources that we should point to as part of this conversation is that the Foley Foundation does put out a report of the state of, you know, wrongful detentions around the world, basically how the government is responding, what's going well, what's not going well. But I think one of the most valuable aspects of it is that a lot of the report is based on the work of the Foley Foundation in actually sitting and talking to the families. And and your report is really the only report that does that, that talks about not just like statistically where things are, but personally where things are and what are the unique experiences, both of people who have returned, but also families who are still waiting for their loved ones to return, what they are experiencing. ⁓ so that report I think is instructive. For policymakers working in this space. Well, it's helped us because then afterwards, ⁓ I remember my good friend and mentor, David Bradley from the Atlantic. He was was one to encourage me to do research. You've got to talk to the people experiencing it now and find out what's working, what isn't. And it's really been incredibly good advice because it's helped us work with our government to ⁓ let them know what is working and what isn't. So it's been and this this fall actually in September, we will be ⁓ putting out a new qualitative report on the experiences of people who've returned. Because many people who've returned from long captivities are really in tough shape. And currently there's not a lot to help them. And so that's one of is the focus of this c upcoming report. That's in ⁓ Diane, that's in September it's being released. Yes. Thank you. So as we are starting to wrap up this conversation, one of the things that listeners may be wondering is how they can help. So people who are inspired by this work, ⁓ I just want to give you an opportunity to talk about what would be the most meaningful ways for people to support the foundation and how can they ⁓ get involved. ⁓ thank you, Caitlin. We always are looking for good people to help us. ⁓ the our work has been totally built on community of many people. Thousands of people who come to we have had two events every year. One is a gathering in Washington that Dee mentioned to earlier, and that started really as a vehicle for families to come and meet. ⁓ government officials and journalists to help them advocate for their loved ones returned. And it's become ⁓ more than that. It's become a fundraiser for us. So everyone's invited and we usually have it in late spring. We also in Oc every October, we have an opportunity for a virtual run walk. We call it the freedom, fully freedom ⁓ run walk, just a five K, anywhere you want. And ⁓ the our website's open for that, folly run dot org right now. So we're looking for sponsors, people who wanna get a cute t shirt and make a difference for others just by participating. ⁓ I'd invite you to ⁓ watch the film, Jim the James Foley Story. We use that a lot with students and public events to raise awareness. And ⁓ my little memoir American Mother, you know, we'd be happy to send you a copy of that. A lot of classes have been using that, both in university and high schools. So I'm really grateful for any way that you can be part of helping fellow Americans and keeping our journalists safe and our democracy free. That's beautiful. I do have to pick on the fact that you called it a little memoir because it is a bestseller. It's been translated into seven languages. It's an international best seller and it is a beautiful book. So You are a very humble and modest woman. You've done incredible things. If you do support the Foley Foundation, you, like me, can get a lot of these cool stickers, buttons, all kinds of things. I feel like I have a virtual shrine to Jim and the Foley Foundation in in my office, which would probably unnerve him if he saw it. But here we are. Probably. Probably. Most likely. So anyone can go to our website too. It's www. James Foley Foundation dot org and that's where we have a lot of information. I would invite and welcome all of you. Okay, look, I'm supposed to be asking you my last question right now, but before I do that, you spoke at the Vatican. Can we you know, Caitlin just sort of casually mentioned it at the top. I d tell us about that. I mean, what an amazing honor. And privilege and that is a humbling experience. It must be. So please tell us about that. Well, undoubtedly the honor of my life. A total huge surprise. Mm-hmm. A lot of it thanks to my ⁓ co author, Colin McCann, ⁓ amazing Irish American author who usually writes fiction. But he became a friend ⁓ after we met each other and helped me ⁓ put together my memoir and He has his wife is Italian. They have a lot of ⁓ connections at the Vatican and in Italy. So it was through Colum that I initially met Pope Leo. Okay. And then about a month later he invited me to come and speak at at St. Peter's. So ⁓ it was the honor of my life. It was really it was very, very special. We took our local parish priest with us and it was just we'll never forget it. It was just it was just being with Good, good people of faith. and very humbling. Talk about humbling. Yeah. So I you know, I'm I take notes as we as we go because I I keep all of my interview notes and we've done almost two hundred episodes and I just like to look at them later. But I just want you to know all I wrote at the bottom was pope. I mean, what I don't know I don't know what else to ri I don't know what else to say. It just says pope. One day I will read that again and be like, Yeah. Pope Leo. She just threw out there Pope Leo at the Vatican. I mean it's amazing. Well, it was cool because it was just shortly after he had been elected. Yeah. And ⁓ so and our first American Pope. Yeah. So and you know, it's been amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing. Okay, now I'm gonna go to my real last question, which is this. We end every episode by asking our guest, as you look back. What advice would you give to your 24-year-old self? Well, ⁓ I think the most important thing for young people is to remember what a gift life is and to use one's life for good. I I really, you know, youth is the ⁓ the future. And I think we need to really challenge and inspire our youth. ⁓ I was lucky to have a faith, have parents who always were encouraging me. And I think ⁓ kids need that kind of encouragement, but also the challenge to do be willing to do the hard things. And if things don't work out, to be able to pivot and make the best of whatever happens in life. So I I really would hope that ⁓ young people can stay hopeful because they're the hope. To me, ⁓ anybody's life can make all the difference in our world just by how they live it and what they do. That is beautiful. Let me tell you what my notes are gonna reflect now. Use your powers for good. This is dying fully. Use your powers for good, do hard things, have faith, have hope, pope. Sounds perfect. I mean, I think I think I've captured it. I do too. It's not a As what Caitlin would write, but that is how I will forever remember you. No, really, I don't, I don't mean to make light. It is your experience that you have turned it into such a beautiful lesson of triumph and strength is an inspiration. And I just want to say thank you. Well, thank you. Thank you for this opportunity and for all you do to help folks like us and so many others. It's our pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. God bless you both. Thanks everyone for listening to Madam Policy. I think it's another great episode. Please download or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And rate and review the show, which is really helpful to have other listeners find it. If you have someone that you think would be a great guest for Madam Policy, please send us their name. You can tweet at us, find us on Instagram, and contact us by the links in the bios. This podcast was recorded in the studios of Policy Badalus, Washington, DC.