Translating Markets: Jamila Piracci on Policy, Markets, and Risk

Olivia Dunning: Madam Speaker. Madam Secretary. Madam Vice President. This is Madam Policy, a podcast about women shaping policy, creating history. Hello, everyone. I'm your host of Madam Policy, Dee Martin. I'm a partner in the Policy Resolution Group at Bracewell. And today we're thrilled to have with us Jamila Pirachi, principal of Roo's Innovations, which is in Houston, Texas, also happens to be the home of Bracewell. although I'm here in Washington, D.C. Jamila has been the Director of the Futures Industry Association, former Vice President of Over-the-Counter Derivatives for the Natural Futures Association, former Counsel at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, and former Assistant General Counsel at ISDA. She is a financial expert, and we look forward to hearing from her today. Before I formally welcome you, Jamila, I just want to note for everybody. Jamila is speaking next week. She has a virtual conference for the Future Industry Association, and she's teaching a course. It's a foundational course designed to introduce us to the world of swaps, including both over-the-counter and listed derivatives. You can check her out at or register at fia.org. Jamila, welcome. We're thrilled to have you here. you so much, Dee. It's great to be here and to speak with you. We're going to have fun today. We're both wearing green, which is very exciting. We did not plan this, although I think going forward, I'm going to ask all of our guests that we dress alike. So let me start with your career. Much of it has been spent in the architecture of financial markets, and that's not an easy place to practice. And really what you're focused on are the systems and safeguards that really most of us never see. But it does underpin everything from energy markets to retirement savings. So it plays a huge role in all of our lives. As I mentioned, you've worked in a multitude of places on these issues, both in the private sector and in public service. But for those who may not live and breathe market structure, can you describe for us the work that you do and why it really does matter to everyday lives beyond Wall Street? Sure, of course. And it's funny, when I first started my career, I thought, am I ever going to do anything that helps people? I don't do anything that's useful to my family. My family says, ⁓ you're a lawyer. Can you help me with this real estate thing? Can you help me with this trust in estates thing? And I have to say, actually, I don't do any of that. And I had lots of inferiority early in my career about the fact that my work was useless. It felt. Look, we have a saying in our house. If there were a zombie apocalypse, I would be utterly useless, like just completely useless. I also can't do wills in the States. And I also can't do sort of what all of my family thinks of as what lawyers do. So. I hear you. I feel you. But we're home here in Washington, D.C., so it's fine. It's true. Well, that is true. And I finally discovered that, in fact, I am helping everyday people and our financial services are extremely critical. The cars that we buy, the homes that we mortgage, the educations that we finance, our entire cost of living is underpinned by the financial system that the work we do helps to support. I'm not saying that we're doing something that has ⁓ more of a white hat than firemen or something like that, but we do play a part just as much as those who are participating in other sectors. What I specifically do is help market participants find their way in regulated landscapes involving derivatives and banking. And I also help policymakers and regulators understand markets so that they continue to meet their goal to serve us as people in the economy. Sometimes I do this through assistance with licensing strategies for firms that are seeking to be registered with an agency. And other times I write and I speak and I offer information and education. And most of all, I'm a translator. That's what I do is work between the industry and public sector representatives to help them understand each other. And I do think it matters what we do. ⁓ no, absolutely. And, you know, it was funny, I was about to say, I think of you as a translator, but what makes you uniquely qualified to be such a good translator is that you've served on both sides, right? You've done it for the private sector as a representative of the private sector, but you've also done it on the public service side so that you know what the regulators are trying to accomplish and you know what the stakeholder community needs. in order to meet those objectives, but still be successful in really underpinning our entire economy. So it is a unique position that you're in. And for one, I'm glad that you're there. but before we go too deep into your personal journey, I have to mention that not only are we both wearing green, but we both just celebrated a major life milestone. folks, for those of you who don't know, Jamila and I each have a child who graduated from high school this year. And Jamila, I know I'm thinking a lot about this. As you look at this sort of new season of parenting, how has motherhood influenced the way that you lead, make decisions, and define success? it has really changed a lot. maybe being a mother, I don't know being a mother has helped me understand the waves of change in my work. or if the waves of change in my work have helped me understand being a mother, but they've had a parallel track. It's very much evolved. It's made me a person who has to evolve because both of those fronts require it. There have been stages where things are very black and white and like transactions, like the money has to get here by this time and there's this much money and it can't be wrong. Just like when the kids were little, they just needed to know simple truths. Like this is not good. This is bad. This is wonderful. Thank you for doing that. Don't touch the hot stove. But then there are stages when things are gray, very gray. And as the kids have gotten older, they get grayer. And I'm more advising to help them find the best path among many good scenarios, in fact, and helping them untangle lots of shades of difficulty and immorality or incorrect behavior and helping them understand the tension that weighs down our ability to make good decisions as we look at the world. So similar to now, the kids are older, they seek my counsel, but they also have to be empowered to make their own good choices. And my work with clients and with the public sector is very similar. let me, I'm just going to ask a quick follow-up and I totally agree with what you're saying. What does success look like through your lens for your children? How do you help, I guess maybe it's a better question is how do you help them define what success is? Because I think there are a lot of expectations placed on children these days. And so we are thinking about what does success look like? Success is difficult. It's hard fought. And I would say that I've been very transparent with them that when, for example, I've stepped away from the full press of my career at various times, including as the kids approached high school, and I was not sure that I was successful anymore. And they've been present when I've had these conversations. But they also have seen me joyful and reaching milestones and at certain mountaintops where I'm saying I have done something that was uniquely within my talent where I provided value that probably nobody else could provide because it was me. And so what we've tried to inculcate in the children is that success looks like doing what you are uniquely ⁓ suited to do to the very, very best of your ability, leaving nothing behind. leaving everything on the field when you tackle something. And sometimes success also looks like doing something you're not that talented at, but that needs to be filled as a gap. And then you just push through it. And so I think that that's hopefully what I've started to leave with them and that they are starting to practice. I think you're clearly leading and teaching by example, because, you know, if you take a look at your career, it hasn't been like a linear career. You've done so many different and interesting things. it's been an extraordinary career, but it's also been a career that takes a lot of gumption. You helped build entirely new regulatory frameworks. You relocated your family and you ultimately launched Roo's Innovations. And so, you know, that is leading by example and taking chances and risks. Was there a moment when you realized, I'm going to bet on myself here. I'm going to build something of my own. And if there was, what gave you the confidence to do that? So there were three moments when I bet on myself. The first was personal, learning how to think in advance about what I wanted out of my social life from a dating and relationship perspective. And that allowed me to not just be reactive to social situations as I had been in my early and mid twenties, but instead to proactively think about what my values were and what it was I wanted in my life and with whom I was going to associate. And that ultimately did lead to meeting my now husband. Carry that forward. started to apply that to my work. And when my family and I moved to Texas, I did not have any professional relationships. We moved here for the kids, for educational opportunities for them. And I had no professional relationships in Houston. So I had to start from scratch. And my mother said, why don't you hire yourself? I thought, fine, but... I only want to run a music business. I don't want to run a derivatives advisory firm at all. But this goes back to the point about and you know her and you know she'd be a tough boss. So that's hard. I do. Instinctively, I knew I might not want to work for her. Yeah, exactly. I get that. But my mother knows her well too. And so I trusted that advice. And it goes back to that point about success. Sometimes it's not the obvious thing that you know how to do that seems easy. It's the thing that needs to be done. And I did it and I ended up loving it. So the third time that I bet on myself was after a stint. Having started my own practice, I was recruited by a prestigious firm to work for them. And I loved that experience. And through it, I learned about things that really were squarely in my wheelhouse. And they involved this. translation work between the private and the public sector. And I decided that since I had been successful helping them build their business and expanding their business, that I could take that talent and invest in myself doing the same thing in areas where I thought I had unique talent. So that was the third time and I did that at the end of 2023. You know, it's interesting because all three of those moments do go back to what you are teaching your children and what you have taught your children since the beginning. And so it's an important lesson to teach not only by being present, but leading by example. I'm going to indulge us both in a little bit of nostalgia here. Like you, I worked on Dodd-Frank legislation and then you on implementation way back in the day. Folks, that was the financial overhaul that occurred in Congress and in the regulatory agencies. immediately following the financial crisis in 2008. In fact, I came back early from maternity leave in order to work on that on the legislative side. My world was the NRSRO world, the Nationally Recognized Statistical Rating Organizations, as they were called at the time. You had a very different side. You were helping build the National Futures Association swap dealer program from the ground up. And we alluded to this a little bit earlier. So, you know, people always think that when a bill gets passed, it's all done, right? Congress has done its part and now it's just...it is the law. And that's true, but the regulatory agencies have to implement it. And that's really where a lot of the hard work begins. And you are on the ground floor of that. So what was it like for you to build something that didn't exist before that was really that complicated and affected a multitude of stakeholders? Tell us a little bit about that. First, I'm glad that you were working on the rating agency. legislation, having been a structured derivatives lawyer, dealing with the complications of that process was very difficult. And it was very hard in the financial crisis to figure out how to resolve it. So we are all grateful for the work that you did to bring some clarity. With regard to my work on the post Dodd-Frank implementation, I loved working with the CFTC on interpretive issues because that becomes the next hard thing. The lawmakers have written down statutory requirements, and then given to the agencies what it is they need to do in terms of rulemaking. So the CFTC began its rulemaking efforts and did so on a very fast pace. And I loved being a part of the dialogue as that rulemaking was unfolding and a part of helping the regulated community, the new swap dealers understand what it was that the CFTC intended by these rules. And then at the same time, helping the CFTC translate back into the application of how those rules would be reviewed as implemented in the firms with the backdrop of what they intended in the writing of the rules. So that was a great translation exercise back then. I also loved working with lawmakers who were still working on security-based swap dealer issues. That was my favorite part of that job. And I also served as therapist for the industry. They were regularly on the ledge and stressed out. And I loved just helping them to see how being at that stage one place allowed them really a front row seat and helping to cultivate their perspective as best they could into the future. It was of course also extremely daunting. I do want to come... I'm going to circle back to those, that was a very stressful time. mean, the U.S. economy was in a period of major transition. There were a lot of vulnerabilities and the financial services industry was really working hard to make changes and to implement these changes. And so I'm glad that you were there for that. I will ask you this, what's one thing you wish that legislators knew when they were... working on legislation like that or legislation like that in general about the gap between legislative language and regulatory implementation? Lauren wish they understood and looked at the next crisis rather than the last one. When I was at the Fed the second time, because I was there twice, the deputy general counsel at that time asked the question that I don't hear lawmakers asking up, is, should we worry about that when that didn't happen yet, that what's coming next that we need to be aware of. And the reason lawmakers need to do that is that that's what the public needs to have solved for and hopes that lawmakers are thinking about. And it's what the market is doing naturally. Markets are constantly absorbing not just the past, but anticipating what's coming. And as we have new markets coming online, the markets are literally designed to take into account the possibilities of the future. And I don't think lawmakers do that enough. They're reactive to the past. actually brings me to another question that I have for you. think, again, you are uniquely qualified for the role that you play on the CFTC's Energy and Environmental Markets Advisory Committee, because you can do some of that forward-looking work that you are hoping that legislators are also doing. in this space that you're doing it with a regulatory agency. So we are entering a moment of extraordinary demand and growth in the energy space, from AI and data centers to reshoring and electrification. At the same time, markets are navigating evolving regulation and some geopolitical uncertainty. So do you think our energy and environmental markets are equipped? for what's coming, what concerns you the most, and what do you see as reasons for optimism? I think the markets are always equipped. I believe that free markets are inherently equipped for what's coming. What we struggle with is that we become aware of our lack of control and try to intervene through additional rules or constraining markets. And those are the things that tend to keep the market from driving toward what it's already resolving. Markets are punished when they don't solve problems or meet needs on their own. And they also are rewarded very handsomely when they do. And so they have this knack for picking up both what all kinds of stakeholders need and they all drive toward shareholder returns at the end of the day. So I think that, in fact, they are extremely well equipped. My concern is the intervention by governments when they don't allow markets to develop naturally, they go beyond just making sure that there's basic integrity and they attempt to decide winners and losers. And that was something that we addressed on the EMAC with the CFTC is that when governments pick winners and losers, they tend to do a very poor job of something that markets do, free markets do on their own quite well. Optimistically, we did manage to escape some of the dangers of replacing what free markets can do to create opportunity and happy living for many people because the governments were driving toward particular goals. Once we realized that all the sort of false goal setting without real practical awareness was not going to work. then markets started producing those goals on their own because they're incredibly good at doing that. are a good translator. That was a very helpful explanation. I'm going to pivot now. You mentioned earlier that if you were going to be an entrepreneur and run a business, it was going to be related to music. I came across an interview that you had given. It was during the pandemic. And you described sort of the beautiful chaos that was happening in your home. Your children were learning remotely. know, everybody was running in and out trying to get their jobs done in different areas of the house as many of us were. But the one thing that you and your family really protected was music. You talked about checking in on your children's music lessons and then working on our music together in the evenings. I need to know what that means. Working on your music. Are you a family of musicians? Are you traveling bands? Like, tell me exactly what you're talking about. No, we are not the Partridge family or something. ⁓ I love it. I love the notion of it. Right? So cute. But no, I sing opera. And at the time, my daughter played the cello and my son played and still plays the piano. In fact, my husband does not play an instrument and is much more likely to listen to a podcast when relaxing than music. And my daughter is more of a visual artist than a musician. But we always had the children involved in some kind of art. It just happened that at the time my daughter had picked up the cello. So at that time, because they were both taking music lessons, we had practice time in the evening after school. And it was important to preserve this because the arts were first of all core to their education. It happened, as I said, to be music. I believe that music and the arts in general are core to the communication between people and even when words are lost, it connects anyhow. So at that time, I was also developing a project called the Lullaby Project, which is about the relationship between parent and child as expressed through the form of the lullaby. And the kids helped me by doing a duet, a piano cello duet as a part of that project. So that's kind of what it meant for us to do music together at that time. And it's evolved as the kids have taken on their own version of what it means to spend time with art, again, my son's case music, to express themselves without constraint. And now they do so without formal lessons, but on their own, in their own spare time. How did you get into opera? My parents, when I was young, my parents also had the same philosophy that one should have sport and art in one's life in addition to academics. So I was taking the flute through a program in Austin, where I grew up. went to my recital and saw someone singing and my mother saw the spark in my eye and my parents were my biggest supporters of my operatic endeavors since I was in middle school. Do you perform ever still? I do from time to time. I'm finishing up the lullaby project this summer and this fall I hope to do a performance in New York. I do, it's core You have to tell us. It is core. If I'm off at all, you'll know that it's because I haven't been singing. So it's very central for me to sing. helps me find clarity and it's also a part of what I've developed in my practice. Music and the arts are in my mind, akin to the way free markets and physics operate. They're really immutable and they are core to human flourishing. When we intervene and interrupt free markets, we are causing damage to the opportunity for humans to flourish. And I think that this is why I did the Lullaby Project. was a reaction to a time when I was not in balance with recognizing my own free market, if you will. My own natural talent, my own voice in the world was music. And my own connection with my children was my voice. So I created this project to be a permanent record of my spirit's connection to my children. And I thought it represented something about any parents' connection to their children. And I began to think about how the lullaby has always represented that for people. That's the time that they say their good night. It's a time where they're thinking very sweetly about their children, but they're also going to miss them. And isn't that also how people need to interact that there's this sweetness about meeting and this bitter sweetness about departing. And if we can keep the thread long enough and allow it to exist, might we behave better? And this is part of the thing that I explore in my work and why I think I So focus on the relationship between the private and public sector because it really is about the relationship and allowing the natural pattern of things to exist long enough for it to reach its full potential. Tamila, that is just beautiful. Although you can't do that to me right now because my daughter's just graduated and she's leaving and now I'm going to cry. You're not. That's what the lullaby is That's the point. I know. I know, but look at me. That's the point. That is the point we have to, this is part of the challenge and this is why we over intervene in markets. Our natural tendency is to say, if I can't control it, if I don't, I don't want to let it be. So I'm going to step in and tell it what to do. No, let it happen. Let it be, let it become what it needs to be. If you do just like our relationships, you'll find something beautiful. Like when your child wakes up in the morning, if you don't let the child sleep. they're going to be a mess in the morning. As we know. I look, I think that's beautiful. And the fact that you have woven together this beautiful symbiotic relationship with children and then the beautiful symbiotic relationship between markets and the private sector and you've married them together. It's perfect. It's perfect. I love it. I hope you write it. Are you going to write a book one day? I hope to when I get some time. Yeah, I know. Aside from all of your other projects and your work and everything else. Well, okay. I have one other question for you, but I'm also going to tell you right now, as I do, you tell us when you're performing. I really would love to see you perform. I think that's amazing. And I too support the arts and having that creative outlet. All right. If you could sit down with your 24 year old self, the young woman just beginning her career, what advice would you give her? I would say to her, follow your heart in your work and live fully. be held back while doing something that's less than that because you think you have to protect someone or take care of other things first. Put it all out there and be who you are. 24 year old Jamila have listened to you? I think she would have, which is why 64, 74 year old Jamila has, I try to think about what I'd tell myself now. And I would tell myself not to worry about the times when I haven't. lived fully because just like everything we've described, it doesn't have to be completely in our control. We can allow it to evolve. And the ideas I have today are not the last ideas I have. The dreams I have today are not the last dreams I have. It is completely fine to let the continuous creative process of life happen. And I can pick from any one of those, any of the remaining of my days. So there's no need to worry about the thing I didn't. allow myself to express freely because tomorrow there'll be another chance. Jamila, thank you so much for being on Madam Policy. Those are all sage and beautiful remarks. I have one more request and that is if you will call me sometime in the beginning of September after I've dropped my daughter off at college and say it all again, that would be great. I would appreciate that. But really, you're a remarkable woman. Thank you for spending your time with us today. It's my pleasure and I will be calling in tears as well because I'll be dropping off my son. These are all things that I tell myself that are extremely hard to live. I'll be sharing your tears and bittersweetness as we say goodbye. And thank you so much for having me. You're an honor to speak with and I love following your work. you so much. Thank you. Thanks for being here. Thanks everyone for listening to Madam Policy. I think it's another great episode. Please download or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and rate and review the show, which is really helpful to have other listeners find it. If you have someone that you think would be a great guest for Madam Policy, please send us their name. You can tweet at us, find us on Instagram and contact us by the links in the bios. What?